1. Can Wanting to Believe Make Us Believers?
By GARY GUTTING http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/10/05/can-wanting-to-believe-make-us-believers/#more-154362Several reasons/explanations for why
2. NYTimes: Debating God: Notes on an Unanswered Question
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/10/13/notes-on-an-unanswerable-question/?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share I spent the past few months interviewing philosophers on religion. Here is what I found out.
If Jesse would blog, he would want to address this essay from the philosophy Gary Gutting. It is fascinating! He is interviewing himself. :) Here are my favorite excerpts:
g.g.: No, they do, but they’re against specific forms of theism. There’s a very strong case — nicely developed by Tim Maudlin in our interview — against arguing for the existence of God (in any religiously relevant sense) as a scientific hypothesis. And Kitcher gave a powerful formulation of the case against believing the doctrines of a particular faith. The point is that there’s often no more reason for believing those doctrines (say, the triune nature of God, God becoming man, the Last Judgment) than there is for believing those of other faiths. Therefore, if you deny the doctrines of other faiths, then you should also deny the doctrines of your faith.
g.g.: No, I’m an agnostic. I don’t find it reasonable to accept or reject a transcendent God, so I withhold judgment.
G.G..: How can you be an agnostic and still claim to be a Catholic?
g.g.: Because, despite my agnosticism, I still think it’s worth pursuing the question of whether God exists, and for me the Catholic intellectual and cultural tradition has great value in that pursuit.
G.G.: Still, I don’t see how you can find a place in a church that claims to be the custodian of a divine revelation, when you don’t believe in that revelation.
g.g.: The fundamental revelation is the moral ideal expressed in the biblical account of Christ’s life. Whether or not that account is historically accurate, the New Testament Christ remains an exemplar of an impressive ideal. Engagement with the practices (ethical and liturgical) inspired by that ideal is the only requirement for being a Catholic. Beyond that, historical narratives and theological doctrines can at least function as useful means of understanding, even for those who aren’t prepared to say that they are true in any literal sense. Some believers may have experiences (or even arguments) that have convinced them that these doctrines are true. But religions — even Catholicism — should have room for those who don’t see it that way.
G.G.: So it seems that you agree with most of your interviewees — believer and nonbelievers — that practice is more important than doctrine.
g.g.: Yes, and I agree with Kitcher that the greatest obstacle facing atheism is its lack of the strong communal practices that characterize religions. People need to believe something that provides a satisfying a way of living their lives, and most people need to find this in a community. So far atheism has produced nothing like the extensive and deep-rooted communities of belief that religion has.
I have never seen anything in print as close to what I believe as what Prof. Gutting has written here. Wow! How happy am I? (and I'll remind you that I'm not Catholic, but Presbyterian, so I would substitute my tradition for Catholicism above. I also expect that some of what he outlined earlier in the essay (go read the entire thing - not just these excerpts), is close to what Cpt. Christina Peters believes.
I found this interview very interesting. First of all, I love the fact that he is interviewing himself. I thought it was quite comical that he was essentially arguing against himself. However, I believe that skill is an important one to possess if one wants to talk to other people about his or her beliefs. For instance, if one can argue against oneself and provide counterarguments to defend his or her belief, then That person will have a better platform and foundation to back up his or her belief and value system when someone challenges it.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, the part of the excerpt that drew my attention is that although Gutting is agnostic, he still aligns himself with the Catholic faith. I thought he had a valid point about a sense of community. He also stated he thought it was important to search for the existence of God and he tended to lie and agree with the tradition of the Catholic faith. I agree that religion creates a sense of community and that is very important to have for people. I also found it interesting when Gutting said that all religion including the Catholic faith should have room for people who did not believe their exact beliefs. I agree that religions should accept people who do not have the same views as the church. The whole point of the majority of religion is to reach out to those who are lost and in need and share the love and word of God. If religions turned away and shunned all the people who did not have the same views and beliefs, then the religion is going against its purpose and mission. Therefore, I think it is very important that religions be accepting to those people who vary from their own faith.
Tonya it is an interesting point you made about how important it is to be able to defend your personal beliefs against yourself. It truly is important to be able to defend your personal beliefs so if they are questions you can fight for what you believe. Well said Tonya!
DeleteGutting brings up a very important concept concerning religion, inclusion. Think about how boring our world would be if everyone had the same beliefs on every topic. What evidence is there that any one religion is better than another? The answer is none. If you can't justify why your beliefs are superior, there's no reason anyone should be excluded. He brings up another good point when he talks about practice vs. belief. The reason he is inclined to associate himself with Catholicism is not related to belief. As an agnostic, it wouldn't make sense for him to declare himself a Catholic. He emphasizes the importance of the moral practices as defining himself as a Catholic.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you who is anyone to tell other what to believe. I agree that the world would be boring without the different religions of the world. If their was only one religion we would all believe every aspect of that religion. I am catholic and I do not believe everything the catholic faith believes i believe parts of other religions as well. Everyone should be included no one religion is better then an other religion.
DeleteThese articles were very interesting, especially the one where he argues against himself. I think that his arguments with himself were very engaging, and I thought it was very interesting that he is an agnostic but is also Catholic. I liked how he describes being Catholic as part of his "pursuit" of God's existence when he says, "I still think it's worth pursuing the question of whether God exists, and for me the Catholic intellectual and cultural tradition has great value in that pursuit." I'm not sure whether I personally believe that he can truly claim to be a Catholic if he doesn't believe in God for certain, but I do like how he explained his reasons and it is certainly great that he is trying to practice the moral and liturgical practices of the Catholic Church that he does believe are right. I also agree that practice is more important than doctrine because saying you believe in something is not the same as living out your beliefs, though I do think that doctrine is an important component of religion as well.
ReplyDeleteI believe that our class discussion on faith is summarized within this conversation with himself. I think that it hits all the main points that we continuously emphasized in class and address the uncertainties of not only faith, but faith institutions as well.
ReplyDeleteQuestions on how we should co-exist with other faiths, and how to incorporate different opinions into our beliefs while still holding onto the structured faith are just some of the many questions we are answered this semester. I think that this is a great summary and will be a part I will take with me after graduation. Easily one of the most valuable aspects of this class wrapped up in simple conversation.
Brent,
DeleteI completely agree with your comment that this was easily the most valuable aspect of the class wrapped up in a simple conversation. Every class, it seems we discuss this same topic. It seems to be ever-present in our class discussions. I think that is due to the fact that this topic is ever-present in our daily lives. I believe this topic I so valuable because it is something that we are faced with every day. I agree that I will be taking this summary and understanding of this topic with me after I graduate.
If some one wants to believe in the existence of a metaphysical entity people can convince themselves that it exists.
ReplyDeleteChurch is one of the few places that you can go where you will see the old, young, white, black, and Hispanic people all sitting together. This is very important because the amount of love that you can experience in that one hour is something that you will rarely ever find outside of that setting. It is a shame that it only lasts for one hour. For many this is the reason for their search in my opinion. They are searching for acceptance, and the church is one platform to do so. Many of you in the other comments mention a sense of community, and that is exactly what differentiates in my opinion a belief from a religion. The religion offers an absolute, tangible, and communal essence that nothing else can.
ReplyDeleteI want to start out by saying that I absolutely love the style of this article/passage! In the beginning I was nervous that the article could easily become very biased but as I read on, I was happy to see that this was not the case. I have read this "discussion" many times over now and I am still taking away stuff from it. I really enjoy the different perspectives the author is able to provide. The part that keeps sticking out to me is the passage "Therefore, if you should deny the doctrines of other faiths, then you should also deny the doctrines of your faith." To me, this is a great way of saying "don't be a dang hypocrite, especially in your faith and judgement of others." So often are people unsure of what they believe and that is perfectly fine, but to me, there is nothing worse than a hypocrite when it comes to living one's life and interacting with others. That being said, we are all guilty of this at one time or another but that is when it falls on us to make a change for the better and learn from our ignorance and mistakes.
ReplyDelete